control system selection

Hello, I work in a sugar mill in El Salvador and we currently are controlling our process with a Siemens Moore APACS+ system. We have many expansion projects and we don't wish to continue using APACS+ because we don't think it offers much for the future.

I am in the process of selecting a new DCS and I am mainly considering these systems:
Emerson DeltaV
Honeywell Experion PKS
Siemens PCS7

I would like to hear about your experiences with these systems in order to help me choose one.

Hi,

It depends on your application, if you wanna use Modicon Plc or A-B PLC, then Honeywell ExperionPSK would be suitable. If you wanna use more integrated sys. with Fieldbus, then Emerson DeltaV would be the good fit.

Regards,
Paul

You are looking at some good systems. We selected the Matrix Total Control System from Standard Automation after evaluating Honeywell and Fisher's offerings. The main reasons were:
1. Full integration with Wonderware's products
2. Fault tolerate ethernet communications
3. Excellent redundancy
4. I/O from MTL
5. Function blocks plus all IEC 1131 languages

All the systems can do the job. Our decision was based on technical functionality and overall total system costs plus ease of use. Good luck with your system selection.

Would not choose any of those.

Have a good look at Citect SCADA http://www.citect.com. You can download it and try it for free.

Would couple that with a good PLC system - more reliable than DCS. My choice would be Omron CJ1 or CS1 PLCs. Awesome beasts and very reliable. Easy to network too. Their Controller Link is a token ring network. Works much better, from my experience, than Ethernet.

You can consider SMAR system, based in Brazil & 30% of their turnover is from sugar Industry only.

Jari
[email protected]

Did you consider ABB AC800M system as an option? Between your three options I've worked with DeltaV and PCS7. DeltaV is a good option as ABB, but PCS7 integrated with WINCC is just a big PLC.

Regards,

CGD

We (SMAR) offer complete automation solutions for sugar mills usingSYSTEM302:
http://www.smar.com/industries/sugar/index.asp

Please contact me directly on the address below

Jonas Berge
SMAR
===========
[email protected]
www.smar.com
Learn fieldbus and industrial Ethernet at your own pace:
www.isa.org/fieldbuses

More reliable than a DCS???? What a strange statement, I can't imagine any PLC vendor even trying to qualify such a statement. Today the difference between PLC and DCS is so thin I don't think in some situations there is any difference.

Some vendors will come and try and sell a DCS to one company and the same system will be labelled as a PLC for another company. It is all to do with how the particular market for the control system perceives the product.

Be careful with such general statements such as "more reliable than..." they are extremely subjective unless you have the numbers to back it up.

Chris Jennings

I agree, trying to get PCS7 to work efficiently like a DCS is a bit of a joke and win cc is about as unfriendly as it gets. Delta is ok, but dated now.

I think Honeywell ExperionPKS will be good option than DELTA-V.

Any of these systems will get the job done and will be a hit. If you want a homerun, I may suggest you

1. Define your project goals for the next 5 years. Including each detail you want to see when you get into your plant. Including
- the HMIs for the operators
- fault and mainteinance info
- the daily reports for the Plant Manager
- the self test for the whole plant
- etc.

make a very big list that helps you to visualize your dream plant. Take a few days to do this.

2. Give your 3 suppliers your 5 year project goals visualization as a requirement and ask them for its
- viability
- price
- development support, etc.
in a written way including scheduling of each implementation and goal achievement in a Gantt Diagram.

3. Never pay for promises, pay for results. Arrange that your payment gets tied to goal accomplishment.

Buena Suerte Amigo!!!

p.s. If you decide to do this project yourself. Choose the most powerful, cheapest, locally well supported solution for automation and control you find. There are several in the market. Choose a team of 3 to 5 people including you to learn the tool. And start to develop the project little by little. You will get to your goal.

We have supplied many DCS systems in the sugar industry in South Africa. One of the successes of Yokogawa CS3000 DCS systems has been the ease of engineering. Another benefit is the price. Please refer to a Yokogawa website and look up the new DCS controller (FFCS). This product is especially suitable for sugar mills due to its flexibility and scalability. Many software solutions are available as well. Try http://www.yokogawa.com for more info.

There are several good systems being presented here.

I am very familiar with the Honeywell offering. It has the ability to connect to the APACS to display and control the Moore/Siemens controllers as well as the PKS controllers. Moore actually commented that it was better integrated into the APACS than the Wonderware front-end they provided. The fieldbus capabilities of Honeywell are great if you intend to reinstrument your plant.

Yokogawa has been very cheap (roughly 60% of the price of a DeltaV or PKS.

The DeltaV is at about half its supported life based on past Fisher systems (average life of 15 years). It has a solid reputation, but the system engineering is not as robust as the Honeywell or the Yokogawa.

Can't comment on the SMAR or ABB systems.

I have worked in erection and comissioning in various DCS systems But I can say that Dela V has many features with support and many enhancements for the future considerations also.

Regards
Rajakumar.D

Hi,

Has anybody heard and used MANTRA MCTL advanced process control system? It uses MODBUS for connections and It has very advanced process control functions. it is from ControlSoft Inc., Ohio USA.

Manmeet Singh

Why change hardware?

Moore stuff pretty solid. Siemens has committed to product until 2015 or something like that. Re-use the moore I/O, go with new front end like WinCC or Wonderware. Use updated version of 4mation software or change processors to PCS7.

(Alot of naysayers above, but probably never implemented a PCS7 system. It works fine as do the rest of the systems mentioned. There is pros and cons to all systems.

Go with a vendor who can support you locally, and looks like it will still be in business in 10 years.

hello, it is very easy to use emerson DCS system in power plant engineering, but it need addtional skill in communication module.

Rajnikant

If you wish to implement a complete DCS solution using the Siemens System, you can contact the PROCISA company that is a solution provider and is specialized in sugar mill factories, we already have strong experience with this systems including power plant management.

You can contact them in the following address:

Ing. Joaquim Velasco
Technical department
Procisa
Advanced Automation & MES Solutions Provider
Parque Industrial PISA, Brújula, 62
41927-Mairena del Aljarafe- Sevilla (España)
+34 954 186680
+34 606 390101
[email protected]
[email protected]
www.procisa.es

Best regards...

Diego Webb
[email protected]

I am looking for four, Siemens (P/N 16413-15 UPH APACS+/QUADLOG) MNI/MBI cards. If you plan to switch out with another system would you offer your parts for sale? In the long term, does anyone know of any other sources available for these cards (working or not as Siemens will still support repairing these cards).

Thanks,

Sburton
Amarillo, Tx, USA
806-477-1252