from the Automation List department...
MARK V Simulator HMI
Human-Machine Interface and SCADA. topic
Posted by Anonymous on 9 May, 2007 - 12:56 am
I'm a student in computing sciences, presently in industrial field dealing with Mark V. I'm trying to develope a simulator for this device, so I'm looking for some specifications about what this simulator is due to do and what gonna be its display. Thank you to answer me via e-mail at: eddy81fr @ yahoo. fr

Posted by marcos on 9 May, 2007 - 11:31 pm
Hi Guy,

Give me more details about to help you for developing your famous simulator.


Posted by markvguy on 12 May, 2007 - 1:44 am
So, you want to build a Mk V Simulator on an HMI? Nothing like shooting for the stars, or giving yourself a stretch goal.

Most GE-design heavy-duty gas turbine Customers who purchased GE-built "simulators" were VERY upset when the simulator didn't run the software which was being used to control their turbine(s). So, this would be another requirement--simulating turbine operation using the Customer's site-specific software.

The simulator needs to be capable of simulating GE-design heavy-duty gas turbine operation, and displaying the operating values on displays which mimic those on the GE Mark V HMI. They need to be able to START, STOP, raise- and lower load; select Preselect- or Base Load, and initiate COOLDOWN ON and COOLDOWN OFF.

Most GE-built "simulators" failed to have any capacity to initiate events designed to test the operator's response to alarms and operating conditions (high wheelspace temperature; combustion trouble; failure to transition combustion mode; primary zone re-ignition; Aux. L.O. Pump starting/running; flame detector failure; etc.), so a good simulator would be capable of setting one or more events during a session which would test the operator's knowledge and responses--and which would be capable of reporting the responses to the supervisor for review and analysis.

The operator must be able to observe synchronization activities (speed- and voltage matching) and initiate a breaker opening when desired to go through the process again for review without having to shut the simulation down and re-start the turbine.

A REALLY good simulation would allow the start-up and shutdown sequences to be paused so that operators and technicians and supervisors could observe key events and sequences.

Alarm Management is key to good operation; as such, the operator must be able to silence, acknowledge, reset, lock and unlock alarms. For alarm troubleshooting, the operator must be able to open necessary files (ALARM.DAT, ALARM.LST) and use the Dynamic Rung Display to troubelshoot alarms.

And that's just a minimal list of requirements for a usable Mark V simulator. Remember, one doesn't need to simulate the Mark V as much as one needs to simulate the turbine and driven device (generator, compressor, pump) the Mark V is controlling. There are a few peculiarities like Logic Forcing (operators and technicians must be able to force logic signals--just like with a Mark V-controlled unit) and Prevote Data Display. Oh, and AutoCalibrate simulation would be the icing on the cookie!

When does your project schedule say you will have all this finished? There are a LOT of very interested people--who WANT a simulator, but DON'T want to spend the REAL money necessary to obtain a useful one or even a semi-useful one, but who have an even larger list of requirements and desires.

Your ambition is to be admired.


Posted by shephard to markguy on 13 May, 2007 - 5:19 pm
thank you for your answer,

but I'm thinkin' about a software simulator which gonna include those specification or what you called minimal list, i'm doing this work just for my final ingeneer presentation so i'm not tryin' to get money so the minimal list gonna be very well if i get it.

so please try to put down that list on a sevral points as 1....2.....3....4....etc and i'm gonna start my work.

p.s: my english level is not so high i'm from algeria. thank you

Posted by Michael Griffin on 15 May, 2007 - 11:52 pm
In reply to shephard: I don't know much about Mark V systems in particular, but I think I can say with some confidence that you are under estimating the complexity of the subject. Your choices on this are basically:

1) Write a simulation of the complete generation control system which exactly duplicates the Mark V functionality, provides a complete realistic model of the gas turbine, and a complete realistic model of how the utility grid interacts with it. This is a project that is probably an order of magnitude larger than "simply" designing a real turbine control system.

2) Obtain a working Mark V control system, and connect it to a computer with software which simulates "just" the gas turbine (and generator and grid). This allows a genuine Mark V control system to "control" a gas turbine without risk of damaging a real one.

To do either of the above, you would need to know enough about gas turbines and Mark V systems that you would be answering the questions here rather than asking them.

Alternatively, you could:

3) Forget about "simulators", and create a "training console". This would present screens and controls to the operator which are similar to those on a Mark V system, but the data and events are "scripted" instead of "simulated". The difference between the two is that a simulator is attempting to provide a realistic model of a complete (and very complex) system, while a script is simply following a limited list of instructions that the trainer has asked it to perform.

This could be created as part of a computerised training system where the trainee would be expected to perform certain specific actions after each training session. That is, the software (or trainer) would present a lesson. following which the trainee would be expected to perform certain specific actions (e.g. initiate a purge cycle) related to that lesson. If the trainee attempted to perform an action that wasn't handled by the script, the system would record the mistake and wouldn't allow the action. This means the system would not have to handle a complete system simulation, just those actions related to what the script was meant to handle.

If the training scripts are written using an embedded scripting language (e.g. Lua, which is commonly used for this purpose in video games), then people can add more training scripts without having to alter the structure of the main program itself.

There may be open source learning (or course) management systems that could be adapted to this purpose already. There are also a number of free open source game engines that might be adaptable for this purpose. However, the former might be too simple (not interactive enough) for your purposes, while the latter may be too complex. You could probably get better information on them by trying some of their forums or developer lists (search for "open source learning management", "open source course management", and "open source game engine").

Posted by shephard on 19 May, 2007 - 3:04 pm
in fact, i'm trying to develope a training software (not a simulator) witch is asked to show the start up sequence (ready to start, cranking, firing, warm up, acc..) so i'm thinking about the script you told me about, however i think too:

1) creating an HMI as the markV one
2) the start up sequence algorithm will be stored somewhere
3) if the operater (trainee) try to swich some button on manual (instead of auto) he can but when it occur a trip the software gonna make the turbine triping.
4) finally the script you told me about will be a physical values taking from a normal "day working" turbine.

thank you to answer by telling me if it is correct brain storming. (those steps are sufficient?)

Posted by Michael Griffin on 21 May, 2007 - 10:34 pm
I would say that the project you have described sounds feasible. The "start-up sequence algorithm" and the displayed values would be part of the script(s). The script would be a simple program in
a "scripting language" such as Lua, Python, Javascript, etc. which would control the features in the main program (read the inputs, control the display, etc.) The idea of using scripts is to allow someone to later make minor changes or additions to how the training console behaves without having to change the main program.

The system should probably allow for multiple scripts, and it should allow new scripts to be added easily. You might also consider whether to have both time driven and event driven scripts operating in parallel. The time driven scripts could animate the displays (simulating the operation of the turbine), while the event driven
scripts could react to the input from the operator.

Posted by shephard on 12 May, 2007 - 10:12 am
thank you to answer me.

first of all I don't know what this "simulator" is ask to do because the person whom asked for this job is currently in his time off so i can't do what is called interview in order to collect its specifications...but what i'm looking for is:

1. the MHI of the mark V which is related to the gaz turbine Ms 5002c to built my software around.

2. some specifications which answers to the question : what gonna this software do not how it's gonna be...

3. any peace of information you think that gonna help me.

thank you a lot.

Your use of this site is subject to the terms and conditions set forth under Legal Notices and the Privacy Policy. Please read those terms and conditions carefully. Subject to the rights expressly reserved to others under Legal Notices, the content of this site and the compilation thereof is © 1999-2014 Nerds in Control, LLC. All rights reserved.

Users of this site are benefiting from open source technologies, including PHP, MySQL and Apache. Be happy.

F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!
Advertise here
View free setup and multi-vendor EtherCAT demo videos online is the largest Automation community on the web. Learn how to advertise here now...
Time to incorporate data handling, web HMI and motion in one system!
Servo, steppers, analog, digital & web HMI - Fully Integrated!
164-page eBook free download - EtherCAT Applications Guide
our advertisers
Help keep our servers running...
Patronize our advertisers!
Visit our Post Archive