Hello Everyone,

I hope this message finds you well. I am currently managing a project involving a Frame5 turbine with a GE Mark VI system. While the overall DCS is operational, we are experiencing issues with the existing HMI PC due to its age.

I am seeking guidance or documentation from the GE community that outlines the procedure for building and replacing the HMI PC with a new one. Any relevant steps or insights you can share would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all for your anticipated support and valuable input!

 

@HRG,

To my knowledge there is no such document in existence.

You wrote, “…we are experiencing issues with the existing HMI PC due to its age.” Is it the CPU (the computer itself) or is it software problems?

The biggest issue with GE Mark* HMIs running older versions of MS/Windows is the hard drive fragmentation caused by Windows. Regular hard drive defragmentation is essential to keeping the HMI running smoothly and efficiently.

One of the other reasons older GE Mark* HMIs have problems is hard drive failure—large blocks of the hard drive become unusable.

Unfortunately it is not as easy as upgrading the version of MS-Windows or installing a new hard drive or even of buying a new PC. And, buying a new GE Mark* HMI is expensive and is not as simple as just replacing the HMI—it’s much more complicated than that and presents an issue with training personnel to work with the new software—and hardware—which GE will force on you.

My suggestion is to hire a competent firm or individual to create a virtual machine of the existing HMI that runs the existing software on a new CPU. This is not difficult, but it is time-consuming and requires several different software programs to create the “image” to run in the virtual machine environment. AND, it would be highly recommended to thoroughly defrag the existing HMI hard drive before starting the process of creating the image needed to create the virtual machine application on the new CPU.

This would allow you to “retire” the existing HMI as a standby in the event of a future issue with the new HMI, but if the image created for the virtual machine is also saved to a portable hard drive that is still another possibility for recovery.

It should be noted that if the existing HMI uses some protocol for communication with a plant DCS (such as MODBUS, or GSM, for example) this may not work entirely properly. But if it’s a plain GE Mark* VI HMI with no such special interface then it should be a very straightforward process.

There are, or were, a small number of companies that offered HMIs for use with GE Mark* turbine control systems, and as with all such things some were/are better than others. Even GE Mark* HMI upgrades could be very troublesome and difficult or impossible to get GE to correct.

Do your due diligence and find a reputable, competent contractor or company to virtualize the existing HMI on new hardware. It’s not going to be inexpensive, but it will be less expensive than getting a new HMI from GE.

Best of luck!

And, if you virtualize the existing HMI remember the version of MS-Windows running in the virtual machine will STILL be fragmenting the virtual hard drive…. But, regular defragmentation will help, as will having enough RAM in the virtual machine.

 

As WTF mentioned, its not an easy task. Would recommend to get in touch with the OEM and see if they have any solution.
You did not mention what is the OS your site is using. Many old OS will not run properly in latest hardware due to device driver missing.
Running in a VM, has its own challenges. Biggest issue will be if your site uses USB based License keys (Which is very rare) may not be detected properly.

 

I have created several GE Mark* HMIs--for Mark* V, Mark* VI and Mark* VIe--most all used USB dongles for the GE proprietary software and for CIMPLICITY/PROFICY MACHINE EDITION. All with no problems recognizing the USB dongles.

For complete disclosure, I used VMWare virtual machine software, which is capable of multiple NIC cards and multiple USB devices. I have tried using MS-Windows virtual machine software, but could never get it to function for even just getting the virtual machine to start and run.

There are other virtual machine programs; I've only tried these two. I found the knowledge-based support community on VMWare to be very good, as well as their warranty support. (They also have paid support options, but I didn't have to resort to that. And, I was a BIG newbie with virtual machines and was able to get it all to work properly.)

@Swami is also correct, when he says older versions of MS-Windows won't run natively on newer PC hardware/microprocessors. It's because no a lot of the interfacing to RAM and hard drives (including SSDs) is done through the BIOS software and newer methods/protocols. And, simply replacing the hard drive in an older PC can be impossible, because newer hard drives are SO big and older BIOS chips won't recognize them. Virtualization is really the only way I've found of inexpensively maintaining older GE Mark* HMIs, and even at that, sometimes the way MODBUS was done (specifically, a cobjob of TCI and CIMPLICITY by GE) can't be made to work reliably. Now, it may be possible to develop a different MODBUS interface using the same configuration and get it to work, but many newer PCs don't even have serial ports nowadays.

In my personal opinion, virtualizing an older GE Mark* HMI on new PC hardware is the fastest and simplet method of avoiding having to deal with GE for new Mark* HMIs and all that that entails. GE doesn't really want to sell you a new HMI--they want to "upgrade" your Mark*, and if you do convince them to just provide a new HMI it will have new versions of GE proprietaty software and new displays and new methods of calibrating LVDTs, and some of it just doesn't work. The HMI displays will most likely be full of issues that will be nearly impossible to get GE to fix once they leave site (and the commissioning person will be in a BIG hurry to leave site!). It's really a mess, and leaves everyone with a very bad taste in their mouths for dealing with GE (now GE Vernova; it will interesting to see of GE Vernova changes their business model--they have a huge opportunity to do so....).

And, one can upgrade the version of MS-Windows running on the new PC as updates come out without mucking up the virtual machine. There's just a lot of benefits and reasons for sticking what some people will call "old technology" (the oldGE Mark* HMI)--but it just needs some TLC and proper maintenance and understanding of the system.

 

@WTF? I came to know that GE acquired again Nexus team (A part of BH group)
They may help.

@HRG
Try reaching out to them at [email protected]

 

Hey,
Thank you for your swift response and assistance.

@WTF? Regarding the current situation with our CPU: the system is running on outdated hardware and software (Windows XP), with the CPU experiencing sluggish performance and frequent issues, particularly with the VGA card and Ethernet communication. Given that it has been in service for the past 15 years, it's clear that an upgrade is necessary.

My plan is to replace the old CPU with a new one running Windows 7, while retaining our existing software. I anticipate that this upgrade will resolve the performance issues we've been experiencing. I'm confident that our current Toolbox Version and Cimplicity software license dongle will be compatible with the new system, minimizing any potential disruptions.

While reaching out to vendors or GE for assistance is certainly an option, I'd like to attempt the upgrade myself initially. However, I welcome any suggestions or feedback you may have on this approach.

Additionally, I'm considering implementing a virtual machine backup as an extra precautionary measure.

Once again, thank you for your ongoing support. @Swami @WTF?

 

@HRG,

Loading a PC with MS-Windows, GE Control System Solutions software and CIMPLICITY can be a real test of one's patience and technical skills.

My best advice would be to create a virtual machine on a new PC running MS-Windows 11 Pro, load virtual machine software (such as VMWare), create an image using something like Acronis that will convert the image to virtual machine format and then spend your efforts on fine-tuning the virtual machine (number of processors/threads; RAM; setting up the video display; configuring the USB devices (because it's likely at a minimum you have a USB dongle for CIMPLICITY) and then contacting GE to convert the CIMPLICITY license to the new machine (not always an easy task...) and then enjoy the fruits of your labors. Just remember to clean up the HMI hard drive before making the image, and then running the HMI for a couple of days to make sure it's all good.

If you're thinking of upgrading Windows XP to Windows 7 and expecting the upgrade to go well, that's not a very realistic expectation. Especially because if you need support, where you gonna find it?

Finally, I always recommend making an image of a working hard drive, using a very good imaging program--such as Acronis. One of the advantages of Acronis is that the images it creates can be loaded on just about any hard drive of equal or larger capacity. Back-ups using good image software, and doing so regularly, is just good practice. The only thing I can tell you about doing this is to shut off TCI and CIMPLICITY when doing so, because both programs open files on the hard drive when running and that can make for problems with many imaging programs. So, when creating the image do so when the machine is not running and you can "stop" the HMI programs to do a good back-up--and you often won't know if the image is good or bad until you really need it.....

Anyway, that's the last of my two cents' worth of advice. Best of luck!