Good afternoon all!

I am keen to discuss here about tips and advices or experiences feedback on MarkVIe as ICS ...

Thank you for your attention and replies

James

 

James,

The group that configures Mark* VIe components as a DCS is NOT related to groups the use the Mark* VIe as turbine control systems. GE had developed special modules and I/O packs and I/O terminal boards specifically for DCS (or BOP (Balance of Plant)) control systems. Yes; they all use ToolboxST, but some groups use FBDs (Function Block Diagrams) and some don't. Some follow a specific naming and device numbering system, others don't.

It's GE, for chrissakes. The only standard is: There is no standard.

It's not impossible to learn how the group that configures Mark* VIe components as DCS (BOP) control systems does what they do, but it's going to take some time and study to understand, and determine how and why. The use of macros in Mark* VIe is also very time-consuming to understand (especially since GE rarely provides Item Help for macros).

GE feels entitled to perform all of the configuration, servicing and troubleshooting of all Mark* turbine control systems--even if they don't have the resources to do so. (I don't have to do anything other than refer to the lack of documentation to support that statement--they just don't document things, so they are the only ones who can understand and even possibly have a chance at troubleshooting or modifying.)

Anyway, Mark* VIe is a fine control system; it can be used for more than just turbine control systems.

Understanding how it's applied to steam turbines and gas turbines (heavy duty or aeroderivative) and DCS or BOP applications is an exercise in deep frustration--even if one has a lot of experience with one specific type of application.

The Mark* VIe is a very capable control system for many applications--the only problem (and it's a BIG one) is that it is applied differently for just about every major application (gas turbine (heavy duty; aeroderivative); steam turbine; DCS (BOP); wind turbine; hydro turbine; boiler feed pump turbine--you name it). The fact that all of these possible applications can be done using a Mark* VIe control system DOES NOT MEAN that if you know one you can immediately understand any other single application. It's a very screwed-up organization in that it doesn't use ANY STANDARDS for any applications, which makes understanding and troubleshooting frustrating and difficult. To be convinced that by having a Mark* VIe DCS (BOP) control system for a plant with GE turbines so that spares and troubleshooting will be easier is to be lied to.

Full stop.

Period.

It's just not true. When you have different organizations, that have not had to work with other organizations--IN THE SAME COMPANY--when applying the Mark* VIe and who will not adopt any standard ("The standard is: There is no standard.") and don't have to (there is no over-riding entity who has the last say/word and who can enforce any standard or resolve differences between "standards"), that is a recipe for chaos. Pure and simple.

Again: The Mark* VIe is a fine and robust control system. But to purchase one as a DCS or BOP for a plant with GE-design turbines (gas; steam) in the hopes that sharing spares and troubleshooting will be easier is bull$%!t.

Full stop.

Period.

End of discussion.

Great hardware and software--but lousy application and execution for a total plant control system.

 

@WTF?

Thank you for these informations !


Actually I have to do the ICS commissioning, on a plant equiped with 8*LM2500XPRESS (simple/open cycle)

On the last job on these new units, the Turbine controllers were built on a GE RX3I ( it use to be Woodward Micronet+)

I also seeking to discuss with people who did such commissioning activities on tips advices ...

Anyway I will seek informations from GE energy when I will be on site..

James

 

I "assisted" with a Mark* VI DCS application on a 2x7FA simple cycle plant many years ago. I remember it was very poorly configured, and the commissioning person (he wasn't an engineer) had a lot of problems trying to understand what was supposed to happen and when because there was ZERO documentation from the "Fulfillment Group" (as the DCS configuration group was called for many years). So, he was forced to have to read all of the application code to understand what would happen when, and then work with the plant personnel (who didn't have much of a clue) to determine if what had been programmed would meet the application requirements. It was quite a mess. (And because I tried to assist (I was working on commissioning the two gas turbine-generators) the project manager blamed me for the problems of the DCS.... The construction was so far behind schedule that I was working night shift trying to commission the turbines and auxiliaries as the wiring was completed; I tried to help the DCS commissioning person when I could, but I was ALSO required to document every device I loop-checked because project management was trying to blame being late on the commissioning crew (which wasn't true).)

Anyway, my recommendation to you, James, is to get your hands on a copy of the plant manuals to see if the operation of the DCS is documented anywhere. That's going to be key to understanding what the DCS is supposed to do.

If the units are simple cycle there shouldn't be too many auxiliaries, and, as with any plant, loop-checking is going to be necessary. Pay attention to the Process Alarms that appear when loop-checking as that will offer some kind of hint as to what various devices are monitoring and indicating. There will probably be water treatment, liquid fuel handling/forwarding, gas fuel handling (if applicable), possibly water washing skid(s), and lots of motor controls (a SWAG--Scientific Wild-Arsed Guess).

But if there's a document that indicates how the plant auxiliaries are to function that would be crucial to understanding if the DCS was configured and programmed correctly. And work closely with plant personnel to understand what they expect the DCS to do--some of which may be wishful thinking on their part...!

Best of luck!

 

Thank you again @WTF?

These advices really helpful

I was thinking to do such works as you described

I am working more and more on that aeroderivatives (LM2500/6000)

Hopefully we gonna have a good documentation from the Packager (GE Hungary) not sure about the team dedicated to DCS ,

Stay blessed and safe!

James

 

Best of luck. I'm NOT a fan of "toy turbines" (the ones that belong on the wings of airplanes). They are pretty finicky and their packaging can be difficult to access some areas/locations for troubleshooting. And, they are getting more complicated month by month, especially with low emissions combustors and auxiliaries. And they still have problems when switching fuels, particularly when it's an emergency. The key is to perform fuel transfers regularly so that the fuel systems get exercised and problems can hopefully detected and resolved before the unit trips on low fuel flow or something similar during a fuel transfer when it's critical the machine stays online.

I also find the application code to be poorly documented and somewhat confusing for toy turbines, which makes troubleshooting and understanding operation difficult.

GE Aero Engine department (the ones that make the HP (gas generator) section) used to publish an IDM--Installation & Design Manual. That document was VERY specific about alarm and trip limits (vibration; engine temperatures; etc.); enclosure temperatures and air flows; start-up and shutdown and lockout; etc. If they still publish that document for these XPRESS engines, it can be invaluable. They aren't easy to obtain, but they are worth the effort. Two or three hundred pages as I recall; paper cover (soft; paperback); flat spine--at least the ones I saw back in the 80's and 90's. They don't describe precisely HOW a turbine is to be controlled but they do clearly define operating limits, trip setpoints and lockouts. (One of the big problems with the manuals was they used a different way of describing operating modes than GE heavy duty gas turbines used--and because LMs were a very small part of GE's packages compared to heavy duty gas turbines they opted NOT to use GE Aero Engine's terminology, so when speaking to Aero about issues it was NOT FUN. They would get so upset when someone mentioned CRANK or FIRE or FSNL (the latter being SYNC IDLE if I recall correctly). Again, two divisions of the same company--and I, as the commissioning engineer, was working for yet a third division, seconded to a fourth division, and trying to discuss issues with them was painful.

Anyway, best of luck! Especially with the DCS (ICS?) system; my guess is it uses very little FBD (Function Block Diagram) and even a mix of the other types of programming methods possible with the Mark* VIe and ToolboxST, oh, and throw in a healthy dose of (undocumented) macros, too. All of this when most DCS/BOP stuff is well-suited to relay ladder diagrams and basic COMPare blocks, and some other basic math functions (ADD, SUBtract, MULTiply, DIVide, etc.). Oh, and don't be surprised to find there is very little use of deadband or hysteresis for COMPares for alarms--leading to LOTS of dithering Process Alarms.

Have fun--wearever you will be!

 

">don't be surprised to find there is very little use of deadband or hysteresis for COMPares for alarms--leading to LOTS of dithering Process Alarms"

I'm curious. Can the deadband/hysteresis be adjusted or is that out-of-bounds?

 

Best of luck. I'm NOT a fan of "toy turbines" (the ones that belong on the wings of airplanes). They are pretty finicky and their packaging can be difficult to access some areas/locations for troubleshooting. And, they are getting more complicated month by month, especially with low emissions combustors and auxiliaries. And they still have problems when switching fuels, particularly when it's an emergency. The key is to perform fuel transfers regularly so that the fuel systems get exercised and problems can hopefully detected and resolved before the unit trips on low fuel flow or something similar during a fuel transfer when it's critical the machine stays online.

I also find the application code to be poorly documented and somewhat confusing for toy turbines, which makes troubleshooting and understanding operation difficult.

GE Aero Engine department (the ones that make the HP (gas generator) section) used to publish an IDM--Installation & Design Manual. That document was VERY specific about alarm and trip limits (vibration; engine temperatures; etc.); enclosure temperatures and air flows; start-up and shutdown and lockout; etc. If they still publish that document for these XPRESS engines, it can be invaluable. They aren't easy to obtain, but they are worth the effort. Two or three hundred pages as I recall; paper cover (soft; paperback); flat spine--at least the ones I saw back in the 80's and 90's. They don't describe precisely HOW a turbine is to be controlled but they do clearly define operating limits, trip setpoints and lockouts. (One of the big problems with the manuals was they used a different way of describing operating modes than GE heavy duty gas turbines used--and because LMs were a very small part of GE's packages compared to heavy duty gas turbines they opted NOT to use GE Aero Engine's terminology, so when speaking to Aero about issues it was NOT FUN. They would get so upset when someone mentioned CRANK or FIRE or FSNL (the latter being SYNC IDLE if I recall correctly). Again, two divisions of the same company--and I, as the commissioning engineer, was working for yet a third division, seconded to a fourth division, and trying to discuss issues with them was painful.

Anyway, best of luck! Especially with the DCS (ICS?) system; my guess is it uses very little FBD (Function Block Diagram) and even a mix of the other types of programming methods possible with the Mark* VIe and ToolboxST, oh, and throw in a healthy dose of (undocumented) macros, too. All of this when most DCS/BOP stuff is well-suited to relay ladder diagrams and basic COMPare blocks, and some other basic math functions (ADD, SUBtract, MULTiply, DIVide, etc.). Oh, and don't be surprised to find there is very little use of deadband or hysteresis for COMPares for alarms--leading to LOTS of dithering Process Alarms.

Have fun--wearever you will be!

@WTF?

I appreciate your support !


Thank you again for theses advises

Next time I should work on 9HA Gas Turbine..

Best regards,
James

 

David_2,

There are multiple kinds of COMPare function blocks in the GE ToolboxST library--both with and without deadband hysteresis. Most programmers use the ones without hysteresis, which can lead to hundreds or thousands of nuisance Process Alarms if the reading (input) is at or very near the alarm setpoint. One GE steam turbine I worked on produced 60 feet of alarms (one alarm per line; 85 alarms per page) in one 10 hour period ("alarming" on steam bowl temperatures (without hysteresis/deadband!), and steam piping temperatures, on a machine that had been shutdown for the day at 7:00 pm in the evening). The Customer was LIVID--and GE factory response was, "That's normal." I estimated it would take about two man-days to replace all the COMPare function blocks with COMP with hysteresis/deadband per turbine if field personnel were to do the work (and there were two (2) steam turbines on that site, with different programs because of unique positioning and usage of each steam turbine), and the GE engineering department refused to pay for the work and refused to change it for this particular Customer because it wouldn't be their "standard" offering. (That Customer now goes out of its way to avoid using GE or GE field service or GE parts--and they're a major independent power producer in North America.)

 

@ControlsGuy25,

"Next time I should work on 9HA Gas Turbine.."

You would like that; you like working on GE Belfort machines.

I just want to see one on the half-shell, and then start and shutdown. As a fly on the wall, so to speak. Just a silent observer. I have heard some horror stories about some of the application code.

But, the operator displays are very nice, I'm told!

 

@WTF?

Yes there are some projects with 9HA coming up in Europe and Middle east

I would like it !

The operator interface displays is just so nice to work with !